Comments on: The case against Al Groh http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312 Offical Blog of Pete Williams Tue, 20 Oct 2009 10:32:30 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: Dick Bestwick http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-492 Dick Bestwick Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:00:58 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-492 Pete: You're dead on with this column. I'll add something else: Name me another NFL coach so gutless and lacking in confidence that he would resign from the New York Jets after going 9-7 to go coach a college team. I don't think the move Groh made has ever been duplicated. He was just looking for a temporary free ride using Welsh's recruits because he knew he'd be fired the next season and back to being a defensive assistant. Groh's such a joke he makes my tenure look good. Great column! Dickie B Pete:

You’re dead on with this column. I’ll add something else: Name me another NFL coach so gutless and lacking in confidence that he would resign from the New York Jets after going 9-7 to go coach a college team. I don’t think the move Groh made has ever been duplicated.
He was just looking for a temporary free ride using Welsh’s recruits because he knew he’d be fired the next season and back to being a defensive assistant. Groh’s such a joke he makes my tenure look good.
Great column!

Dickie B

]]> By: FireThatGuy http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-333 FireThatGuy Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:50 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-333 FIRE AL GROH: Hey UVA fans... Love your team, but hate your coach??? Well check out our great new shirts... GROH MUST GO, NO MO GROH & more - http://www.FireThatGuy.com FIRE AL GROH: Hey UVA fans… Love your team, but hate your coach??? Well check out our great new shirts… GROH MUST GO, NO MO GROH & more – http://www.FireThatGuy.com

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-226 Anonymous Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:03:52 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-226 Pete - I have never replied to something like this and am not sure why I am now other than I have some unique insight into the Coach Groh world. I played for him! I won't say where because that is not important. What is important is that I have first hand experience of how he treats players. I can tell you that he is not number one on my list. He personally treated me with an arrogance and callousness that to this day I still find offensive. I think it is a shame that UVA is not a successful program under his watch and I think that the points you raise are right on. I witnessed numerous times where his arrogance and personal gain were clearly at the forefront over player and school. Personally - I think that UVA needs to make a switch. Not for any other reason than the time has come for them to move on! Pete – I have never replied to something like this and am not sure why I am now other than I have some unique insight into the Coach Groh world. I played for him! I won’t say where because that is not important. What is important is that I have first hand experience of how he treats players. I can tell you that he is not number one on my list. He personally treated me with an arrogance and callousness that to this day I still find offensive. I think it is a shame that UVA is not a successful program under his watch and I think that the points you raise are right on. I witnessed numerous times where his arrogance and personal gain were clearly at the forefront over player and school. Personally – I think that UVA needs to make a switch. Not for any other reason than the time has come for them to move on!

]]> By: theo http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-199 theo Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:11:36 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-199 Although the numbers may not "lie," the trick is in the interpretation of them. In UVa's case, you have to know one critical thing about the school first: in the two decades prior to Welsh, in-state recruiting of talented black football players was either nil or highly negligible. In the Welsh years, that reversed. So, the success potential quotient for the school, all other things being equal, really improved remarkably. But not all other things ever remain constant, and UVa hasn't been able to mine the commonwealth for diverse talent uncontested. First and foremost, the standards of this highly competitive academic university are a real challenge for recruiting down to the three-deep level. Just is. Second, UVa has sharp competition for talent within the state and, frankly, on its borders. Kids might like the fact that the cavs present a high-quality option, but that's all we are. VPI, Maryland, UNC are big players in our pond, and the smaller anglers -- JMU, W and M, and U of R -- are pretty formidable, perhaps not for 4 stars, but they can steal some of the guys you'd love to have as backups on your roster. What Welsh did that was crucial at the time he started (which was my second year as a student, btw), was establish UVa as a serious contender for the top in-state talent, regardless of race, and got people very comfortable talking about being a Wahoo despite concerns they may have had in the past. That was foundational work, it really was, and it shouldn't be dismissed by arguments like Ben's, that reduce everything to "40/80" against winning teams, etc. But, as we all know, Welsh got things started -- he didn't end them, obviously. When Welsh fatigued, the cupboard wasn't bare (as you've pointed out with Miller, Schaub, Canty, Pearman, et al), and the recruiting trail wasn't cold. Still, he'd had a couple of high profile misses that probably stung pretty good (Curry, Vick, come to mind), and the Hokies were really getting traction in-state. That meant that the next guy's challenge would be two-fold: (1) continue what Welsh had established, in all its key components; and (2) manage the competitive scrum. Groh hasn't managed the first part well in that he has let the in-state recruiting slip materially. And he finds himself looking east and north for kids that just don't bleed the Wahoo-Wa as a commonwealth kid would. The big failures reflect something bad at the core. Welsh didn't have that problem, and Groh has prob ably reached his end because of his failure to bring committed commonwealth stalwarts into the fold. Although the numbers may not “lie,” the trick is in the interpretation of them. In UVa’s case, you have to know one critical thing about the school first: in the two decades prior to Welsh, in-state recruiting of talented black football players was either nil or highly negligible. In the Welsh years, that reversed. So, the success potential quotient for the school, all other things being equal, really improved remarkably. But not all other things ever remain constant, and UVa hasn’t been able to mine the commonwealth for diverse talent uncontested. First and foremost, the standards of this highly competitive academic university are a real challenge for recruiting down to the three-deep level. Just is. Second, UVa has sharp competition for talent within the state and, frankly, on its borders. Kids might like the fact that the cavs present a high-quality option, but that’s all we are. VPI, Maryland, UNC are big players in our pond, and the smaller anglers — JMU, W and M, and U of R — are pretty formidable, perhaps not for 4 stars, but they can steal some of the guys you’d love to have as backups on your roster. What Welsh did that was crucial at the time he started (which was my second year as a student, btw), was establish UVa as a serious contender for the top in-state talent, regardless of race, and got people very comfortable talking about being a Wahoo despite concerns they may have had in the past. That was foundational work, it really was, and it shouldn’t be dismissed by arguments like Ben’s, that reduce everything to “40/80″ against winning teams, etc. But, as we all know, Welsh got things started — he didn’t end them, obviously. When Welsh fatigued, the cupboard wasn’t bare (as you’ve pointed out with Miller, Schaub, Canty, Pearman, et al), and the recruiting trail wasn’t cold. Still, he’d had a couple of high profile misses that probably stung pretty good (Curry, Vick, come to mind), and the Hokies were really getting traction in-state. That meant that the next guy’s challenge would be two-fold: (1) continue what Welsh had established, in all its key components; and (2) manage the competitive scrum. Groh hasn’t managed the first part well in that he has let the in-state recruiting slip materially. And he finds himself looking east and north for kids that just don’t bleed the Wahoo-Wa as a commonwealth kid would. The big failures reflect something bad at the core. Welsh didn’t have that problem, and Groh has prob ably reached his end because of his failure to bring committed commonwealth stalwarts into the fold.

]]> By: Pete http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-198 Pete Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:54:50 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-198 Bruce -- Yes, I corrected this in the original post and addressed it in the 9/9 post. Thanks. Bruce — Yes, I corrected this in the original post and addressed it in the 9/9 post. Thanks.

]]> By: Bruce Milam http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-194 Bruce Milam Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:24:51 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-194 I double checked my source from Jacksonville and sent him your article. He's already made his mind up that Groh must go. But he said you were way off base regarding the Gator Bowl committee's feelings toward UVa. They will never invite TT back again, not UVa. TT totally embarrassed themselves at functions and in public. UVa did everything it was supposed to that week and met every obligation with aplomb and courtesy. You are onto some bad information on that one. I double checked my source from Jacksonville and sent him your article. He’s already made his mind up that Groh must go. But he said you were way off base regarding the Gator Bowl committee’s feelings toward UVa. They will never invite TT back again, not UVa. TT totally embarrassed themselves at functions and in public. UVa did everything it was supposed to that week and met every obligation with aplomb and courtesy. You are onto some bad information on that one.

]]> By: Scott http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-188 Scott Wed, 09 Sep 2009 19:07:27 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-188 As a VT fan, I love seeing Groh and his attitude represent UVa so VT gets all the in state recruits while UVa gets kids from Ohio, PA, NJ and NY. As a VT fan, I love seeing Groh and his attitude represent UVa so VT gets all the in state recruits while UVa gets kids from Ohio, PA, NJ and NY.

]]> By: Pete http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-186 Pete Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:05:04 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-186 Ben -- Appreciate the research. Not sure I agree with all of it. Here are Welsh's non-conference ranked opponents (1984: West Virginia, #12; 1987: Georgia, #20; 1988: Penn State, #18; 1989: Notre Dame, #2, Penn State #12, Illionis (bowl), #11; 1990: Tennessee, #10 (bowl); 1991: Oklahoma #20 (bowl); 1993: BC, #15 (bowl); 1995: Michigan, #14, Texas, #16; 1996: Texas, #13, Miami, #19 (bowl); 1997: Auburn: #17; 1998: Auburn, #25, Georgia, #19 (bowl); 1999: BYU, #17....Va Tech, then a non-conference foe, also was ranked every year but 1997 from 1993-2000. Were the Hokies as good as they've been during Groh's era? Not generally, but that's partially a function of Groh's in-state recruiting. Florida State also was a much more formidable foe from 1992-2000 than during the Groh era, ranked 6-1-3-2-3-3-6-1-6 at the time of its Virginia game. Welsh also faced (and struggled with) much tougher Clemson teams. In Groh's first four seasons, the ranked non-conference teams he saw were Wisconsin (No.22/2001), South Carolina (No.22/2002), West Virginia (No.15/2002 Tire Bowl) -- none in 2003-04, including bowl foes. I don't have the other years handy, but I'll concede that all of your numbers are correct -- and appreciate the insight. My concern is more with how Groh has represented the University and how his players have (mis)behaved. Ben — Appreciate the research. Not sure I agree with all of it. Here are Welsh’s non-conference ranked opponents (1984: West Virginia, #12; 1987: Georgia, #20; 1988: Penn State, #18; 1989: Notre Dame, #2, Penn State #12, Illionis (bowl), #11; 1990: Tennessee, #10 (bowl); 1991: Oklahoma #20 (bowl); 1993: BC, #15 (bowl); 1995: Michigan, #14, Texas, #16; 1996: Texas, #13, Miami, #19 (bowl); 1997: Auburn: #17; 1998: Auburn, #25, Georgia, #19 (bowl); 1999: BYU, #17….Va Tech, then a non-conference foe, also was ranked every year but 1997 from 1993-2000. Were the Hokies as good as they’ve been during Groh’s era? Not generally, but that’s partially a function of Groh’s in-state recruiting. Florida State also was a much more formidable foe from 1992-2000 than during the Groh era, ranked 6-1-3-2-3-3-6-1-6 at the time of its Virginia game. Welsh also faced (and struggled with) much tougher Clemson teams. In Groh’s first four seasons, the ranked non-conference teams he saw were Wisconsin (No.22/2001), South Carolina (No.22/2002), West Virginia (No.15/2002 Tire Bowl) — none in 2003-04, including bowl foes. I don’t have the other years handy, but I’ll concede that all of your numbers are correct — and appreciate the insight. My concern is more with how Groh has represented the University and how his players have (mis)behaved.

]]> By: Ben T http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-185 Ben T Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:29:43 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-185 Its not just that Welsh played a much easier schedule over the years than Groh, well, expect that it is... If both Groh and Welsh have won 40-41% of games against D-1A teams that finished with winning records, and both coaches won 79-80% of games against losing 1-A schools and 1-AA schools, how could Welsh have such better results? Well, Welsh just played more losers than Groh. Welsh never played ten games like UVa didn last season. Welsh never played 8 straight games against bowl teams, like UVa did last year. Welsh never routinely played a strong (albiet overrated) VT program. The Welsh years should be remembered fondly for what they were, a nice change from before. But let us not exaggerate what was accmplished, 40/80, just like Groh did. Just like we've been since 1981. 40/80. There's only been one five year stretch in school history where UVa has beaten more than 50% of opponants that finished with a winning record, and that was 1987-1991 when we went 16-14-1 against winners, but were only above .500 against winners in two of those seasons. 1989 and 1991. If you look at 1987, 1988, 1990 and 1991, we played either 5 or 6 teams a year that finished with winning records. We played ten in 2008, ten. More than any other year in school history. Curious about 2007 when we went 9-5, well, we only played five schools that finished with a winning record. We are, who we've always been, a 40/80 school. There's a much greater chance we will fail to be that under a new coach, than there is that we exceed that 40/80. Do your homework, gain some perspective. The only thing a new coach will do, is unite the fanbase temporarily, until the 40/80 resumes. Its not just that Welsh played a much easier schedule over the years than Groh, well, expect that it is…

If both Groh and Welsh have won 40-41% of games against D-1A teams that finished with winning records, and both coaches won 79-80% of games against losing 1-A schools and 1-AA schools, how could Welsh have such better results? Well, Welsh just played more losers than Groh. Welsh never played ten games like UVa didn last season. Welsh never played 8 straight games against bowl teams, like UVa did last year. Welsh never routinely played a strong (albiet overrated) VT program.

The Welsh years should be remembered fondly for what they were, a nice change from before. But let us not exaggerate what was accmplished, 40/80, just like Groh did. Just like we’ve been since 1981. 40/80.

There’s only been one five year stretch in school history where UVa has beaten more than 50% of opponants that finished with a winning record, and that was 1987-1991 when we went 16-14-1 against winners, but were only above .500 against winners in two of those seasons. 1989 and 1991.

If you look at 1987, 1988, 1990 and 1991, we played either 5 or 6 teams a year that finished with winning records. We played ten in 2008, ten. More than any other year in school history. Curious about 2007 when we went 9-5, well, we only played five schools that finished with a winning record.

We are, who we’ve always been, a 40/80 school. There’s a much greater chance we will fail to be that under a new coach, than there is that we exceed that 40/80.

Do your homework, gain some perspective. The only thing a new coach will do, is unite the fanbase temporarily, until the 40/80 resumes.

]]> By: Pete http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312&cpage=1#comment-182 Pete Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:20:15 +0000 http://www.petewilliams.net/blog/?p=312#comment-182 No joke. No college program is completely free of off-field embarrassments, though Tech seems to have fewer than most, certainly fewer than U.Va. Perhaps you are referring to the Vick brothers? I don't recall Michael embarrassing the school while he was there. Marcus, absolutely. Then again, U.Va. recruited him hard, too. No joke. No college program is completely free of off-field embarrassments, though Tech seems to have fewer than most, certainly fewer than U.Va. Perhaps you are referring to the Vick brothers? I don’t recall Michael embarrassing the school while he was there. Marcus, absolutely. Then again, U.Va. recruited him hard, too.

]]>